Lakemaster vs. Navionics

[Erawk]

Hello all,

I'm thinking about getting a map card for my finder and I'm wondering if anyone has any insight on which I should buy. I am mainly concerned with lake Mohave at this point but wouldn't mind having Mead as well.

Thanks in advance.
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[wolfs4evr]

Unless something has changed there isn't an option. Lakemaster lists Mead and Mohave as partials only. I have sent several emails over the last year and some asking what does "partial" mean and what is and isn't covered and never got a answer back.

Overall product I would like to be able to run Lakemaster since it has several features Navionics doesn't but since Lakemaster doesn't cover our lakes 100% it's a mute subject. I keep wishing...

Navionics works well on Mohave since the lake level is constant. On Mead you have to take it with a grain of salt. There is no adjustment feature for lake levels like Lakemaster has (why I would love to be able to run a Lakemaster chip). So more or less every new island out there as the water level goes down is listed as being 20-50 feet under water on my chart. I have learned to really pay attention to contour lines. When an area shows them circling up like say a underwater island I don't drive over that spot...

[url "http://www.humminbird.com/uploadedFiles/Site_Assets/manuals/Product_Manuals_from_Shopatron/HB_WesternStates_v1_2014.pdf"]http://www.humminbird.com/...rnStates_v1_2014.pdf[/url]
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[wolfs4evr]

If you want to see what Navionics is like just download the app for a couple bucks. I have it on my phone. Got it for like $2.99 back when. I think it is closer to $10 bucks these days.

You can also use their webapp for free and looksie around.

[url "http://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en"]http://webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en[/url]
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[Erawk]

Thanks Wolf. I was hoping you would chime in with your experience. I mainly interested in having it so I can easily spot underwater structure from afar while cruising around. I could just use the app and y phone and get a Ram mount for it. Hmmm... I'm going to give it some thought. Thanks again.
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[wolfs4evr]

I called Lakemaster like a year ago and whomever I talked to said they would pull a chip and loaded it on a unit and take some screenshots to email to me. That never happend. This made me call them again and do the wait times, etc today. Finally someone answered and said all the same stuff other than this time put me on hold and did all of that. They had no notes on what was defined as "partial". She got the unit fired up and looked around. To her it looked like a complete map/coverage. North to south and out to the east all looked like it was mapped (Mead). The only conclusion that I hinted at more than from her is that Mead/Mohave is bold in the lake list I posted above denoting HD coverage. A way more detailed version. I am betting, and the and the person on the phone somewhat agreed with my conclusion, that HD coverage is only partially done but there is a complete map. Thus the term partial coverage. She said all the coves/shorelines were very detailed but way out in the deep water it appeared to not be as detailed.

I might buy one to see... To be seen. The Navionics I have is 3 years old. I have been jones'in for a new map/chip, etc. If coverage is there from the Lakemaster and I like it I'd just drop my Navionics chip in my front 798 unit so I'd have a little more detail when I am on the bow verse the oem base map that comes in that unit.

The HUGE thing to me that I already mentioned above is the ability to adjust the map to the current water level. Navionics has zero features to do this. I have called/emailed them several times asking for something like that over the last several years. Everytime I get that isn't in the works type of dealio back from them.
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[fishrdan]

I'm running a Navionics on my Humminbird 581 and it's pretty darn accurate on Mohave. Navionics supposedly has 1' graduations mapped out on Mead and Mohave, which seems to hold true.

Wolf is right about Navionics (and/or Humminbird) not having a lake elevation offset, which is a pain for Mead, but I just follow the contours as he said.

I've been fishing Mohave lately and the Navionics is pretty friggin accurate. I can set-up a trolling run between submerged humps, clipping points, much further away. It really helps when the wind is up and it's not easy to see the "green water" depth changes. I was trolling south of Cottonwood when the wind was up (3'ers+) and without the map it would have been darn near impossible to efficiently set-up trolling runs to clip the points, I wasn't very familiar with the area. Without the map,,, by the time I could have seen the water color/depth change, the boat and lines would have been WAY out of position.

I probably could have got away with just the NV (or AZ) state version, but opted for the West Premier Hotmaps since I go to UT also. Either way, it's not cheap. I looked at a used Navionics chip on Ebay, but came to the conclusion they were not a good deal, no updates and outdated map info.

I don't think a "phone" version would be very friendly out on the lake as the screen is too small, better than nothing though, and for $3.... If it would run full screen on a tablet, that would be awesome (if I had a tablet...)

NOW, the only thing I don't like is when I'm slow trolling and the Humminbird can't figure out which direction the boat is heading N-S-E-W. If I'm trolling off the main at 2-3mph it isn't bad, but while trolling off the bow-mount TM going 1 - 1.5mph, the screens aspect will flip back and forth, facing north, facing south N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S annoying... Did I just pass that point or am I going to run into it? (If anyone knows a setting or tip to resolve this it would be much appreciated.)

Best of luck,
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[wolfs4evr]

Same for me. If running the big engine to troll I am going 2-3mph or so depending on the wind. The direction arrow works perfect. If using the TM and going speeds slower than that the directional arrow is a biotch and only pops up here and there which is a pain when one is using the TM to move a little here or there to ones waypoints that are in close proximity.

There is a "fix" but not cheap and more than likely not compatable with your unit. Humminbird released a new GPS puck several years ago that is directional/has a heading sensor. Meaning it knows what direction your boat is pointing even without the boat moving.

[url "http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-GPS-HS/"]http://www.humminbird.com/Products/AS-GPS-HS/[/url]

This receiver requires software 6.570 or higher in the compatible Humminbird product.

When the AS GPS HS (GPS and Heading Sensor product) is connected to the unit, the unit uses the Heading information (NMEA HDG) from the heading sensor (digital compass) for the boat icon direction and the Heading Line (if turned on). The GPS Course-Over-Ground (COG) always uses COG derived from the GPS output, not the Heading Sensor. The Course Projection Line always uses the COG derived from the GPS receiver. When only a GPS receiver is connected (internal or external) no heading information is shown. The only direction information is derived from the GPS COG information and the boat icon direction is based on the COG, not Heading (HDG).

Simply stated, Heading and Course Over Ground are separate and are not based on speed and when the heading sensor is connected to the unit the boat icon uses the heading information for its pointing direction and it uses the GPS Course Over Ground information for pointing direction when no heading sensor is connected.

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[fishrdan]

Thanks Wolf, Yeah, that GPS receiver isn't compatible with the 581, just the high end Humminbirds. Even if it was, wholly carp, $200, yikes! At least they realize there is an issue...

One other small issue, when fishing in the tight canyons around Willow Beach, the Humminbird will loose GPS fix since the canyons obscure the GPS satellites. It doesn't bother me as I know the area, just thought I'd mention it since you said "Mohave".
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[wolfs4evr]

The GPS puck with a heading sensor was released when the 360 sonar got released. It is required/needed for that sonar system to work properly/be displayed correctly on the screen (I'm about 98% sure on that analogy).

If one purchases a system that has a "normal" GPS puck (typically the Humminbird 800 series units and above) you can send in that puck in it's unopened/never been used condition plus the $$ difference and maybe shipping, I can't remember all the exact details, and get the upgraded version with the heading sensor. So really only a $50 buck or so upgrade if one has the "normal" puck in never been used condition. (At least Humminbird use to do that stuff. Haven't checked into it for years. One use to be able to send anything in in never been used condition for a upgrade/change. Like changing up a transom mounted transducer that comes oem with a unit for a trolling motor mounted version, etc.)

Just like I have mentioned before I couldn't imagine running that lake without a map/GPS I really have no desire to have a system with mapping w/o a separate GPS puck. When I mark my waypoints I want the mark exactly where the item of interest is. Thus my GPS puck is mounted on the back corner of my boat as close as possible to the location the transducer is at. That way no matter what direction I come from to the waypoint once my GPS says I am there I am there since the mark is exactly where the transducer is at that saw the item I am looking for. Works especially well from the front of the boat too. If I mark something with the console unit the mark is exactly above the item of interest (below the big motor per se). My front unit is internal GPS so when the front unit says I am there the spot of interest is right under the bow of the boat where that unit is at (I can see front/rear waypoints on both units since they are connected together via a Ethernet cable). Small differences but in all reality can make a difference. Trying to get exactly on top of a rock pile for example if I wasn't set up the way I am I could be 16 foot away from the item or more.

I know lots of babble. I think I made sense. I'm just a little detail oriented now and then [cool]
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[wolfs4evr]

[quote fishrdan]One other small issue, when fishing in the tight canyons around Willow Beach, the Humminbird will loose GPS fix since the canyons obscure the GPS satellites. It doesn't bother me as I know the area, just thought I'd mention it since you said "Mohave".[/quote]

I have only done the whole river once. From Willow all the way down into the mid Mohave area. Never lost my fix. The external GPS antenna works a whole bunch better than a unit with a internal. I wasn't watching/paying attention to what the front unit did with internal GPS though. That was several years ago. I can get a perfect fix with the boat sitting inside the garage with the door open. That puts the puck +/- 20 feet inside the garage. The front unit that would be only a few feet inside the garage takes upwards of 20 minutes to finally get something if anything at all. Also since both of my units are connected together via a Ethernet cable if the front lost a signal for whatever reason I can just switch it to the rear GPS puck.
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[wolfs4evr]

I just went and fired off the Humminbird 898 in the garage with the garage door closed. After just a minute or so of being powered up I had a great position/signal/fix. Could of been better if I had let it run a little bit longer to pick up a few more satellites to get a good 3D enhanced fix. The altitude was off some when I snapped the picture. The exact coordinates were cut out []

Pucks/external GPS antennas are spendy but there is advantages to them if your unit is capable of running them.


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[wolfs4evr]

So I have today off, doesn't happen often, and pondered driving down to BPS to see what they had for Lakemaster chips. I decided to call ahead. They have 4 in stock (600011-1) for the western states (all the same) but not the one I wanted, I think. So took what they had for part numbers and compared that to what Humminbird/Lakemaster lists then called them to better understand the differences. The one our BPS has is actually what is currently available (2014 version). What is on the Humminbird/Lakemaster site is what is coming out. They don't even have copies yet. They are expected to be in/shipping sometime later this month. So will hold off until the "newest" version is available (2015). Besides just being the "2015" version they added some features in the Plus version (600011-2) like satellite pictures on the HD lakes that one can also overlay/look at. So might as well hold out for the "newest" latest and greatest. The price is the same. Also I learned something I hadn't looked into yet. Lakemaster chips/charts are a one time dealio. There is no "updates" to them like Navionics does so if one is going to get a Lakemaster chip better off waiting until the latest and greatest version is available.

600011-1 is the part number our BPS has right now.
600011-2 or -3 is what is coming out and the one to wait for if anyone wants to try/buy a Lakemaster chip. (One of them is a normal SD card and the other a micro SD that is aimed at the new Humminbird Helix models.)
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[fishrdan]

[quote wolfs4evr]I have only done the whole river once. From Willow all the way down into the mid Mohave area. Never lost my fix. The external GPS antenna works a whole bunch better than a unit with a internal.[/quote]

I have an internal GPS and only noticed it drop out 2 times while trolling up against a cliff wall down in Windy Canyon. I usually don't run GPS down there though, so its' not a huge deal for me. I'll have to see what GPS does going up towards Hoover Dam, next time I'm up there.
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[wolfs4evr]

So a couple days ago (Saturday) I picked up a new Navionics chip. Been meaning to get another one so I had more detail on the front Humminbird. I don't have a chip in it and only the Humminbird base map stuff which essentially says you are on a lake and not much else. lol There is several different ones but after comparing them, several emails to Navionics and doing some internet searches it really comes down to one. The newest released Navionics+ chip. It comes with zero maps on it and one has to go to Navionics and pick what they want and download them. (More or less the entire west coast side of the US fits/is within the max limits one can download.) With this one one could have lakes on it all over the US verse being restricted to a zone like my 2011 Navionics HM Premium west chip.

Three gains made. First I haven't paid for updates for a while so back on a year of updates for this one. Second it has Sonar Charts which are waaaaaay detailed compared to "normal" Navionics charts. Third, one can record their day on the water essentially and upload that file to Humminbird. A week or so later when one does a update that "new" sonar info will be in it. To be seen if I like that/it works as advertised. I recorded some of my running around Sunday and uploaded it to Navionics. I really don't need anything new since Mead is really mapped well so to be seen if worth the time. Plus I didn't use their settings for the recordings so to be seen if this works (1 ping per second. I kept it on auto so I had a good picture fishing). I just did it once to see how this all works. It would be cool to hit a lake not mapped like Panguitch in Utah and see what comes out of doing something like that.

There still is no way to adjust for water level so one still has to be on their toes on Mead and just really watch the contour lines and take the info with a grain of salt.

There is some tricks to using that card which caught me off guard (like getting to Sonar Charts view verse the normal view). Info wise there isn't squat on the Navionics site on how to fully use the card. I did some youtube searches and learned what I needed to know that way. Plus I sent Navionics an email last night with some other questions I can't find the answers for.

To buy this one over say the HotMaps Premium it comes down to can your unit handle it. "Most" Humminbird units can and if so I say 100% worth it if your unit can handle Sonar Charts. It is a 50 dollar difference but worth it for the "HD" contour detail.

[url "http://www.navionics.com/sites/www.navionics.com/files/documents/Americas_CompatibilityGuide_4.pdf"]http://www.navionics.com/...atibilityGuide_4.pdf[/url]

I still want to try the LakeMaster version one of these days just for the ability to adjust the water level but since there is no online updates for it I'm holding off until the 2015 version gets released. To be seen if I actually buy it this year or not...
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[wolfs4evr]

If one wanted a visual comparison... (I guess I was bored this morning...)

This is off my 2011 Humminbird 898C SI unit on my boats console.

These three snapshots I took with my cursor on the Outhouse waypoint that I had marked in my unit.

Contour XD (Factory preloaded map)



This is what one gets with HotMaps or the new Plus (Not the SonarChart view).



This is with the new Navionics+ in SonarChart view.



These next 6 are the same dealio other than I had my curser on the same spot for all of them. Quite a difference comparing the oem installed map (Contour XD) verse anything Navionics.

A random point off Sand Island. (IF I only had Contour XD, Humminbirds oem installed base map, and fished this point going off their mapping I would of been a little over 200 feet away from where the actual point is.)







That Rock sticking out of the water just north of Boulder Harbor.






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[wolfs4evr]

Don't pay attention to all the little dots. Those are old history trails. I sometimes have upwards of a years worth in my unit. I delete them when the screen gets clustered or when the lake goes down considerably. As the lake goes up I know if I am following an old history trail it is safe to navigate. Down... Not neccessarily safe thus I delete old ones if the lake goes down.
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[Erawk]

Thanks for sharing. A lot of great info there. I haven't made up my mind quite yet, but this helps a lot. thanks again.
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[wolfs4evr]

Lakemaster just released a downloadable map. You pay for just a lake or lakes and download them to a SD card. Would be cool to check out Mead on to determine if one wanted to buy a full version card or not... Very limited amount of Humminbird units can handle it though. Nothing I have. Pretty much Humminbird 899 series and up only.

[url "http://www.humminbird.com/Category/Technology/ChartSelect/?utm_source=Humminbird+ChartSelect&utm_medium=Ascent_Email&utm_campaign=33219792&utm_term=537023278&utm_content=Thursday,%20January%2022,%202015"]http://www.humminbird.com/Category/Technology/ChartSelect/?utm_source=Humminbird+ChartSelect&utm_medium=Ascent_Email&utm_campaign=33219792&utm_term=537023278&utm_content=Thursday,%20January%2022,%202015[/url]

Units that can handle this.

[url "https://chartselect.humminbird.com/supported_products"]https://chartselect.humminbird.com/supported_products[/url]
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[Erawk]

I was able to find (wasn't easy) the new v2.0 Western States Lakemaster card in stock for my Helix 5 Si for $116 shipped, so I pulled the trigger. (Last one, lucky) I will see just what they mean by partial coverage.

I won't have it on the water for a bit, but will report back after I do.
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[Erawk]

I was wrong! [] Nobody has them in stock, they're due in 3-4 weeks. Hurry up and wait []
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