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utah fish and game, yesterday went to yuba fishing and had a hard time casting in between the gill nets they had out for the nothern pike, which is understandable considering how they manage the lake. But what I cant figure out is if they want the northern numbers down in the lake and tiger muskeye numbers up else where.
Why are they not turning pregnant walleye free out of there nets.Instead they just hand them out like candy on the boat dock.
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Until the perch are back in some kind of numbers, there's no reason to protect walleyes or northern pike. Having lots of big, top end predators without enough to eat makes for lopsided results. Once the perch show up again the rest of the fishery can get back to normal.
And gill nets aren't designed for release of live fish. They're designed to allow harvest of specific sizes of fish. They wanna know what's in there, how big, and how many.
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I would have taken all they wanted to give me, had I been there. Only way I'll ever get to eat any, it seems.....and they're sooooooo good.
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I am quite sure they were there to take eggs from the northerns which I dont agree with. What a waste of a damn good fish, we all know they will die, but when they catch walleye they should have returned them back as soon as they found them in the nets. Why did the DWR keep them and then hand them out (still alive) to people on the docks? After all isnt the goal for Yuba Res. to eventually become the premier walleye fishery in the west? What a dream. The feller that made the original post has spent hundreds of hours and a lot of money just like myself to learn how to find and catch Northerns. It kills me that there is such a huge body of water in my back yard that is so worthless for fishing. The attitude is kill the Northerns so walleye can survive. Thats dumb, leave the Northerns so they will help kill carp. Yes the perch #'s are down but I know 100% for sure Northerns will eat carp, I have found them in their bellys. I could go on and on about Yuba Res. for hours but I know it wont do any good. Carp are the real problem, have a commercial fisherman cast some nets and get them gone. Plant some perch, blue gill, crappie, trout by the millions and lets see how things turn out. We might be pleasantly suprised.
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I don't believe that Yuba has been certified disease free, so there would be no reason to strip eggs and milt from Northerns at Yuba. They already have certified Northern Pike and Muskie in the ponds at Lee Kay for the Tiger Muskie program. Gill netting is a sampling method that is used to determine what the population and condition of a fishery is. While the number of fish in the nets looks like a lot of fish are being sacrificed, it is a very small sample of the numbers in the water being sampled. Fish that can be released, are, some are necropsied, and the rest are donated for consumption. More fish die of natural causes each year than are taken in the nets !!!
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Wrong!!!!!!!! Yuba has been certified disease free and they were there to pillage Northerns for eggs. I thought the DWR had enough for the Musky program but I must have thought wrong. By the way people if fishermen kill every Northern caught out of Yuba there wont be anything to catch out of there but carp. Please dont kill off all the Northern Pike!
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Once again, until the perch come back in respectable numbers there is no reason to protect, or save walleyes or northern pike. Having lots of predators and nothing for them to eat makes for a bunch of skinny predators, and few if any prey. The perch don't stand much of a chance with so many pike, and the pike don't do well without having perch to eat.[crazy][crazy]
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Ok - I have to JUMP in here as I have been communicating with the people that have done the gill netting and people working to manage this fishery. I can PROMISE you that the perch are not the issue.
100% of northerns that were caught in the last gill net study they did that I talked to them about had carp in their stomachs - NOTHING else.
PLEASE do your part to not kill the northern Pike in Yuba as it could be a good fishery and really is our ONLY one in the state at this point. PROTECT IT!
Info@ToothyAnglers.com
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I did some researching and did confirm the ones they were "handing out" were the ones that died in the gill nets.
This is from a VERY reliable source.
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[quote Bigguyone1]100% of northerns that were caught in the last gill net study they did that I talked to them about had carp in their stomachs - NOTHING else.
PLEASE do your part to not kill the northern Pike in Yuba as it could be a good fishery and really is our ONLY one in the state at this point. PROTECT IT!
Info@ToothyAnglers.com[/quote]
Because there is NOTHING else for them to eat. It's not a great situation. It would be great if they would eat nothing but carp and leave the perch alone so they could recover. That's not what is happening. The perch are in very short supply. The fishery will struggle until the perch make a comeback. They will have a difficult time recovering with lots of top end predators swimming around.
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High water equals perch fry, perch fry equals forage for predators, predators gain a foothold, low water hinders the forage, forage crashes, predators crash, bait fish (perch) regain strength, predators gain strength, over and over again.
I'm happy the pike are sustaining themselves on carp, it may give the perch a break but I think water levels play more importance than who's eating who.
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Fishrmn I have to agree to disagree on this subject. Northerns are eating Carp, I as well as others have physical proof of this. The perch #'s are down there is no doubt about that, but why kill off Northerns and Walleye? I dont understand your thinking, personally I dont think you know anything about either species. Anyway this is going to be a good high water year and hopefully things will change for the better. Bigguy1 and fsh4fun05 seem to have their heads on straight, maybe others should start paying attention before all of the Northern pike are gone.
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Read all that fishrmn wrights, if its not a trout its a trash fish and should be removed from the water...
he only like or wants trout...
You and I and others like all types of fish, and we know that a lake with only one kind of fish is a waste..But Fishrmn wants only trout..
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I think killing off the Walleye and N. Pike is idiotic. I have only read a few of your posts fishrmn, I'm getting the sense that you are a stirrer of the pot when it comes to any fish but trout. Why is that?
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You guys are funny...what Fishrmn is saying and is correct about is this: nothing is controlling the populations of walleye and pike. Nothing. So, if pike and walleye are eating some carp and remaining somewhat healthy doing so, they are also reproducing and producing more predators. The problem is that carp do NOT make good forage for predators because they grow too quickly to remain a viable prey species...that's why there are so dang many carp in Yuba. For walleye and pike numbers and sizes to reach an optimum, perch or some other more viable prey species needs to have a strong foothold. Yuba sees large boom and bust cycles in its predator species because the prey species boom and bust....this is a fact in many of our reservoirs. Sadly, people like Cliff, don't understand this. It is NOT about trout versus walleye/pike...it is about what is best for the walleye and pike.
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[quote bassrods]Read all that fishrmn wrights, if its not a trout its a trash fish and should be removed from the water...
he only like or wants trout...
You and I and others like all types of fish, and we know that a lake with only one kind of fish is a waste..But Fishrmn wants only trout..[/quote]
Sorry bassrods, you've come to a misguided conclusion. I don't write about fish other than trout being trash fish. I never have. There are many other types of fish that I have enjoyed fishing for. The problem is that once a non native fish gets established it is nearly impossible to control the consequences. Good or bad. Stripers at Powell were thought to be unable to spawn effectively. There were high hopes that they would be much like wipers. They're able to spawn every year and have created a boom and bust problem. The Gizzard Shad that were accidentally introduced have helped for now, but nobody knows what will happen in a few years when the shad reach their maximum numbers. They may wind up being like carp in Yuba.
Pike are often called "Water Wolves". Look at what is happening with the reintroduction of wolves in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. Do you think it is a good thing for the deer, elk, moose, coyotes, cows, sheep, or anything else that a wolf can eat? When the wolves reach their maximum numbers and they're eating cattle and sheep to survive, do you think it would be a good time to try to establish a new species of ungulate, like say caribou? No. Every young caribou would be hard pressed to survive with so many wolves around that they've already eaten most of the elk, and they're having to survive on cattle and sheep. The same thing is going to happen to Yuba. This year looks like a good water year. That could change. It could get too warm too fast and the runoff could be short lived. We could go into a very dry spring and summer. Either way, it looks like there will be lots of water in Yuba for the next few months. That will be good news for all of the fish in Yuba. Carp, walleye, pike, and if there are any left, perch. There aren't very many perch left. Who says there aren't many perch left? The pike. The fishermen who target perch. The UDWR. The pike are having to eat carp. They don't do it by choice. They're doing it because they can't find enough perch to eat. The guys who like to catch Yuba's jumbo perch aren't catching very many. The gill nets are coming up nearly empty for perch. So when the perch spawn, their offspring are going into a reservoir that is already full of pike, and has more than a few walleyes. They're gonna get eaten before they get big enough to spawn. The pike will spawn, and their offspring will eat perch fry. The walleye will spawn, and their offspring will eat perch fry.
The UDWR tried to establish perch before the predators got well established after the repair work on the dam at Yuba. They spent lots of money, time and effort to get three year classes of perch in there at once. They bought young of the year, they bought juvenile fish, and they arranged for the transplanting of adult, spawning age fish from local waters. They protected perch, against the wishes of many fishermen, for a couple of years. It still wasn't enough. The predators won. They're gonna win again when the water comes up this spring and the few perch that are there spawn and reproduce. There are too many top end predators for the resource.
Is anybody catching "hammer handles"? Are there any pike that are eating well in the 10 to 22 inch size? I'm not hearing of any. I'm not seeing any information from the UDWR that there are any in that size. Why? Because every year when the pike spawn, the young grow for a few months on carp fry, get about 8 or 9 inches, and then run out of food. The big pike in Yuba used up all of the perch to get over that first couple of years. Now they're big enough to survive on carp, but they're not doing a great job of balancing with the resource. That's what I call a waste.
I love wipers. I would like to see them in a certain few other waters. But they don't belong everywhere. White Bass in Deer Creek are a mistake. Wipers in Deer Creek would be a better option, but certainly not a good option. Tiger Musky would be a much better fish for Yuba, but it probably won't happen. Why? Because Northern Pike are in the drainage, their numbers are uncontrollable, and they're already out of balance with their prey base.
By all means, carry on. Enjoy Yuba for what it is. Baby sit the big pike while they last. Until their numbers are reduced, there won't be enough prey to support a more balanced fishery in Yuba. If their numbers were reduced the perch would be better able to make a comeback, which would in turn allow more pike and walleye to survive and grow. Here it is in bold print. I'm not against pike in Yuba. I'm against keeping the balance tipped in favor of large, top end predators. If their numbers were reduced (Not eliminated) the perch would be able to make a comeback, and the fishery as a whole would be better. You could catch perch, walleye, and pike. Right now there are few walleye being caught, and almost no perch.
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Good post Fishrmn....it is good to see that some fishermen get it.
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[quote submoa]I think killing off the Walleye and N. Pike is idiotic. I have only read a few of your posts fishrmn, I'm getting the sense that you are a stirrer of the pot when it comes to any fish but trout. Why is that?[/quote]
Because so many of the folks who want to catch trophy pike, or lots of walleyes aren't willing to go where the trophy pike are or where there are lots of walleyes. They want to make Yuba into a trophy pike water. Some think that Deer Creek can be a White Bass fishery. Or that Strawberry would be better off with Smallmouth Bass. They're both bad ideas. With all of the water problems, carp numbers (pike won't put a dent in their numbers) and lack of other forage, Yuba will support some pike, but not be a great pike fishery. If you want a great trophy pike fishing trip, go to Minnesota, Wisconsin, or Canada. That's where the conditions allow for great pike fisheries. Yuba is great right now, but it won't last. There's nothing for the yearling pike to eat. Yuba will crash and rebuild. The crash will happen, but the rebuild will take longer with lots of big pike in the mix. If the number of pike drops, the recovery will be quicker. IF you could eliminate the pike that are now in Yuba and replace them with either Tiger Muskies, or a sterile Northern Pike, then you could have a respectable fishery. But as long as the pike continue to spawn their numbers can't be controlled to balance the forage. Their offspring will eat nearly all of the perch that hatch this spring at Yuba. Again, I'm not advocating getting rid of the walleye or pike in Yuba. It just doesn't work to have more predators that will spawn and reproduce than the prey can support. If there were fewer adult walleye and pike the perch would come back and support more walleye and pike in the future. I think it was Coyotespinner in another thread that mentioned the food pyramid (not the USFDA's) and how it takes so many more prey to support a few predators at the top of the pyramid. You can't build a pyramid from the top down, you have to have the base to support the top end.
The loss of a few Northerns to supply the Tiger Musky program isn't going to hurt Yuba. It's a good thing. The loss of a bunch of walleye that were caught in gill nets isn't going to bring about the demise of the walleye fishery there either.
[quote Bigguyone1]Ok - I have to JUMP in here as I have been communicating with the people that have done the gill netting and people working to manage this fishery. I can PROMISE you that the perch are not the issue.
100% of northerns that were caught in the last gill net study they did that I talked to them about had carp in their stomachs - NOTHING else.[/quote]
Again, the perch are the issue. The pike aren't eating the carp because they want to. They are eating them because they have to. If there were enough perch in Yuba for the pike to use them as a forage species, then they would eat some carp and lots of perch. They aren't eating perch because they've already eaten most of them. Pike evolved to eat perch. They do best where there are perch available. They feed more effectively on perch. If the perch come back in any kind of numbers, you'll see pike eating perch and leaving carp alone. And it's only the really big pike that can utilize the carp. Is anyone catching "hammer handles"? Are the pike growing through their first year? Or are they winding up as food for their parents when they reach 5 or 6 inches while they starve looking for perch to eat?
[quote MR.PIKE]Thats dumb, leave the Northerns so they will help kill carp. Yes the perch #'s are down but I know 100% for sure Northerns will eat carp, I have found them in their bellys. I could go on and on about Yuba Res. for hours but I know it wont do any good. Carp are the real problem, have a commercial fisherman cast some nets and get them gone. Plant some perch, blue gill, crappie, trout by the millions and lets see how things turn out. We might be pleasantly suprised.[/quote]
If it were feasible for commercial fishermen to harvest carp out of Yuba, it would probably already be happening. If it were that easy, I'd suggest that you or one of the others who think it would be so easy, give it a try. Let us know how much money you invest, and how much money you make at carp seining at Yuba. They've planted perch. They've planted trout. I wouldn't be surprised if someone has tried crappie or bluegill in Yuba. There are supposed to be fathead minnows in the Sevier River. Until the crash there won't be much other than a few big pike caught at Yuba. If there are lots of big pike spawning at Yuba the recovery will be a long time coming. Getting your knickers in a knot over a few walleyes dying in a gill net or a couple of big pike being taken for their eggs is missin' the forest while lookin' at the trees.
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Powell is one of the country biggest success story in a long time..
Do you know how long the shad has been in there??(gizzard)
And lets talk about NON NATIVE fish that has been put in our (yes I said OUR) waters like the rain bow and browns and all but a very few like one or two types of trout>>>>...
And Wolves???? They are four footed not fin and gills...
Now that we know that just about ALL of the fish in our waters are not native to Utah (but the CHUB) and yes the wolves are out and killing any thing they can lets get back to fishing...
The DWR has got rid of all the native fish ( or tried to) why not at leased try and balance our lakes and put some feeder fish in them with the game fish we have now..
I know that white bass will or may not do well in Deer creek with out food and no other fish or wolves will do good with out food... So why not try to come up with a food source that mite work...
For the most part trout do not spawn in our lakes, but are planted, and the trout do better in the higher lakes and in the streams...And yes we have a water highs and lows from one year to the next, so why are you and others so against trying things.. Gizzard shad was put in Willard as a food fish to help the fish in there..
And as we all know it has worked, now Powell back in the late 70's and 80's the lake was great but the Stripers was on the rise and it went down in one winter, then the lake was BAD skinny fish or no fish at all for over 10 years..
Now comes the shad Gizzard and the DWR said they would eat all the food from the other hatching game fish fry...
Has that happen???
Hows the fishing at Willard???
Hows the fishing at Powell????
Now Yuba??? How is the fishing there????
How long has the BOOM and BUST been going on???
How long do you or anyone want to set back and do NOTHING??? Or have the DWR do NOTHING???
All the high bread fish does is keep costing us money to raise and breed..Yes they are fun to catch, but any big fish in good shape is, Trout, Bass, Perch, Walleye and all the rest...
But what do they ALL need?????
FOOD......
Not, lets wait for years and see....
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And the winner is.... bassrods.
[quote bassrods]
Do you know how long the shad has been in there??(gizzard)[/quote]
http://www.utahoutdoors.com/pages/gizzardshad.htm
What in the world would make you think it is easier or cheaper to raise fish to feed to other fish?
Perch are the feeder, or forage fish in Yuba. If you wanna talk expensive, try doing the same thing at Yuba that they did when the dam was repaired. Only now you won't be able to establish another forage fish because there are too many predators. The problem is we can't raise enough of them to feed the predators. It is easier, cheaper and more feasible to control the predators by planting hybrids.
You really should get a couple of aquariums Cliff. Raise Oscars in one, and a feeder fish in another. See how hard it is to keep enough feeders for a dozen Oscars. Or buy enough to feed them. The perch that the UDWR put in Yuba were said to be about a buck apiece.
[quote bassrods]The DWR has got rid of all the native fish ( or tried to) why not at leased try and balance our lakes and put some feeder fish in them with the game fish we have now.. [/quote]
This is Exactly what I've been trying to tell you, but you don't seem to be able to get it. The system is out of balance. Thin the predators and the forage will rebound.
Where do you come up with the idea that the UDWR has tried to get rid of all of the native fish? Probably from the same source that thinks they put walleye in Deer Creek. They knew that the walleyes would be another predator in a reservoir full of predators. I highly doubt the UDWR had anything to do with the introduction of walleyes in Deer Creek.
Rather than try to put food in Deer Creek for White Bass, let's get the White Bass out of there and not put anything else in. If you want some good fishing for White Bass, go fishing where White Bass do well, rather than try to make Deer Creek or Utah Lake for that matter into a White Bass fishery.
[quote bassrods]And as we all know it has worked, now Powell back in the late 70's and 80's the lake was great but the Stripers was on the rise and it went down in one winter, then the lake was BAD skinny fish or no fish at all for over 10 years..
Now comes the shad Gizzard and the DWR said they would eat all the food from the other hatching game fish fry... [/quote]
Gizzard shad may be the greatest thing in the world for Lake Powell. But in a few more years they may be the biggest problem. They've had enough time to become established lake wide, now we'll have to see if they become so abundant that they impact the survivability of the other species. Success at Powell is a relative concept. The Gizzard Shad work very well at Willard because they die off in bad winters. If they didn't, they would be like carp at Yuba.
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