Floatation suit ?

[TEXAN64]

after hearing of a fellow ice fisherman pasting away.i have a concern. do any of you use floatation devices? i would like to buy one but have no idea what to get.i flat fear the ice and going through,i went throuh in the early '90s and quit icefishing till last year went i joined this forum.so if anyone has any info please share.thank you,Felix
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[kochanut]

http://www.mustangsurvival.com/products/....php?mc=13
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[windriver]

Here is a link to the Arctic Armor suit that floats. There are some good videos that explain how they work. I am seriously considering saving for one for next year.

[url "http://www.idigear.com/video3.php"]http://www.idigear.com/video3.php[/url]

Windriver
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[kentd71]

That is one great idea for safety and very usable. They are not cheap but cheaper than a vexlar. That is money well spent if you are on the ice often. Only once I have seen a person on the ice with a life jacket. You could probally go in with it and save someone.
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[windriver]

I do wear my life jacket when I am tip toeing on the early ice at Henrys.

Windriver
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[me_and_myboy]

this is a question that I have pondered every time we venture out onto the ice. thank you for posting that link, I will definetly be purchasing one of those suits. they did have one on sale for $114 (listed as a Christmas sale, Green Bay Edition). If it not only keeps provides safety from the water but also provides warmth that makes it worth every penny.
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[prvrt]

After looking at those suits, it seems they are made out of the same 5mm neoprene that waders are made of. Looks like you could just wear your waders and as long as you have a chest belt, you would be good to go. I know with mine, anything deeper than about crotch deep and I have a hard time standing still due to the floatation of the waders. Just a thought.
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[mudsucker]

The only trouble with waders, you tend to float upside down. Get some material and sew up a coat or vest. Or wear a life jacket, mine is pretty comfortable in the summer.
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[jimpete525]

I really like the arctic armor I am really thinking about investing in it. They say that the suit will float three people so I wonder if you need the jacket & bibs
Or it one or the other would keep you afloat.
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[flygoddess]

[quote mudsucker]The only trouble with waders, you tend to float upside down. Get some material and sew up a coat or vest. Or wear a life jacket, mine is pretty comfortable in the summer.[/quote]

A little long reading, but worth it. Note, he is backing up what Prvrt said.

The myths

The first myth is that if you were to unexpectedly fall into a lake, your waders would fill up with water and drag you down to the bottom so as to drown you (because everyone knows that the water inside your waders is always heavier than the water outside) (!).

The second interestingly, takes on a completely different angle. This one states that if you were to unexpectedly fall into (assumedly) the same lake, your waders, instead of filling up with water, would actually fill up with air, and flip you upside-down and leave you suspended from the surface (like a very large suspender buzzer)!!!

Now I know that these two scenarios are both hilariously ludicrous, or at least they would be if they weren't taken so seriously. (You don't believe that anyone actually takes them seriously? Then tell me: why do most fisheries ban chest waders from being worn in boats? This is especially ridiculous when you consider that wearing chest waders would more likely save lives that lose them).

I for one would rather float around a cold lake wearing my waders. The neoprene helps you float, and any other sort just helps to keep you warm. Abandon sinking ship? Bung on a life jacket and waders.

Hang on a mo! There is the tragic story of two anglers drowning on a stream mouth on Lake Taupo. Waders were blamed. But what actually happened here was that they tried to swim against the current and the resistance of the water flowing into their waders caused them to look like they were being dragged down. They should have gone with the flow, and when they were clear of it, gently swum back to shore.

But this is all just theoretical stuff. The sort of thing that looks good in text books, but what use is it for you and I? We're practical people: mountain men, fly fishers; we who have the wind in our hair, dirt on our hands, steel in our hearts, strange far off looks in our eyes, eyes that have seen much - too much maybe. What is needed is hard-core proof! Throw away the text books. Let's put our waders on and jump in the pool. For this is the only way to discover life's sweet secret dreams.

And with this stuff spinning around my head I took it upon myself to attempt to recreate the Killer Wader Myth in a swimming pool. I have said it before and I'll say it again: The Paul Arden Fly Fishing Experience will take you places you never knew existed, because that's who I am and that's what I do.

The four tasks.

So I set myself four tasks: (1) to recreate KWM scenario where waders fill up with unreasonably heavy water and drag me frantically struggling (I assume) to the pool bottom, where I will be able to walk around for a little while and (2) to recreate KWM scenario where waders fill up with air and suspend my feet from the surface, which should hopefully give me a whole new perspective on existence and (3) to flip a float tube over so my girlfriend can get a good shot of my fins sticking up in the air and (4) to go for a long swim (in waders).

The float tube flip

I started with the float-tubing option. I decided to make this more authentic and bring my rod and hat along for good measure. Flipping float tubes is actually quite hard. I have done so before (also in a swimming pool) just to see if I could get out again, but I have never managed to flip one over unexpectedly. In order to invert yourself, you first have to lift yourself out of the tube and lean forwards until your nose is virtually touching the water. Then with a strong fin flick you can flip over.

Once flipped I found it impossible to flip back again. I was hoping to do some eskimo-roll float-tube thing. I was hoping that maybe with practice I could do this while guiding, 'Hey, watch this!'. But it doesn't work. I should point out that it's not particularly easy to get out of the tube; your fins tend to get caught in the seat and/or line tray. But it is quite easy to swim around and (importantly) breathe while this is going on. I could imagine quite happily swimming around with one foot stuck in the float tube pretty much indefinitely. So no worries there, mate.

Two points of interest came from the float-tubing miventure: the first is that my hat sinks like a stone, the second is that my rod quite happily bobbed around the pool on it's own. So when push comes to shove I know which I'll be grabbing hold of next time.

Heavy Water

My next test was heavy water. I figured that all the heavy water would be milling around the deep end pushing all that lighter feebler stuff away, so that's where I went to find it. Jumping in a most dramatic manner off the springboard I went right to the bottom of the pool. Thinking that I had achieved my task, I almost celebrated. But it was not to be; I bobbed right up to the surface again. Try as I might, I just couldn't find water heavy enough to drag me (frantically struggling) to the bottom of the pool. So I had to give up on this one.

Suspender feet

'If I can't sink, then sod it, I'll just have to float... feet first'. So with this in mind I returned to the diving board (first emptying my waders by sticking my feet in the air - 'like a dead duck') whereupon I dived (full marks for style) head first into the pool. And it worked. Well, sort of. I mean my wader legs did fill up with air, not enough to flip me upside down and suspend me there in an amusing fashion, you understand, but there certainly was air inside those waders.

I could see it. I could feel it - it sort of helped me float around. Now I read some piece somewhere in a magazine a few years back, written by a guy who recommended carrying a sharp knife so as to stab the air out of the waders (presumably he imagined bobbing down river, suspended by his feet - as you do). Well, I found a much simpler (although admittedly not coloured by the same life-and-death struggle) solution where just by lightly kicking your legs straight the air pops out, and water flows down to take its place.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not suggesting that you should kick the air out - I quite liked having it there, it was quite relaxing in a funny sort of way, but if you should want to get rid of it for some personal reason, then it's quite easy to do. In fact keeping the air there, without getting rid of it is a much trickier proposition. I guess you could put a wader belt on after diving head first into the water. So that's another point; why do those people wear wader belts? 'Cos it looks cool, man'.

Swimming lessons

So, OK those of you who know me, know that I learned to swim last year in Australia. Before that I was as close to a non-swimmer as you could get, without being strictly classified as a non-swimmer. I guess I was about two hundred yards away from being a non-swimmer. And then I decided it would be a good idea to become a tri-athlete. Learning to swim properly had always been something I had thought of as being a good, useful, worthwhile thing. For the triathlon it became a necessity. So I joined a swimming club and got lessons twice a week.

You can't learn to swim properly until someone teaches you. Is that like fly casting or what? Bet you didn't see that one coming... a surprise suggestion. Arden psychology.

So anyway, the point is that I was now in the position where I could determine whether wearing chest waders was a suitable substitute for swimming trunks. So I did a few lengths. It was not as I had expected. I had expected to find it hard, lots of resistance, heavy feet, that sort of thing. Not a bit of it; even wearing heavy boots, the buoyancy of the neoprene kept my legs high in the water, actually making swimming very easy. And although the waders I had used for this experiment were not the most streamlined, drag was not the major problem I had imagined. Indeed it was negligible.

Waders for warmth

Now although I am quite confident enough in my swimming ability, to be able to swim all that could be required on any lake distance-wise, often cold would be a problem factor. In early season water, if I was to end up in the middle of a large lake, say, I would hope to hell that I had my waders on. And I would hope that they were neoprene.

It would be negligent of me to end this article without mentioning the fact that non-swimmers should get lessons and become swimmers, that poor swimmers should always wear a life-jacket anywhere near water - especially on dams, in boats and possibly in the bath, and lastly float-tubers should wear manual inflatable life-jackets whenever they jump in a tube.

But look, I'm not your mother. I don't feel that it's my duty to tell you these things (even though I just have). It's your personal right to go out there and drown. And if that's what you want, then here's my advice: don't rely on the Killer Wader, it's just another myth. Now spontaneous human combustion - there's another story...

Foot note:

Since writing this some four years ago I've had a number of emails on the subject. A few people don't believe me and think I drowned or else made the whole thing up. Apparently in Germany you *do* drown if your waders fill up with water... so don't fish there then.

There was the excellent point made a couple of years back that wading belts - as well as looking cool - also helped prevent cold water from reaching your toes should you go for a swim. That may swing you next time you visit a tackle shop.

But I really want to talk about the float tube flip. I had a recent email stating that this actually happened to someone and the gentleman in question had great difficulties in breathing and had to rip himself out of the tube. I think it's very important that should you find yourself upside down with your feet trapped in the tube, that you swim. Extend your body and don't panic. Most drownings occur anyway as a direct result of panic (and water of course). It may feel a bit strange but you can swim with a float tube around your ankles and you should do this first before attempting to extract yourself.
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[FishingSteve]

Good info, hope I don't find out if what he is saying is true , but it does make me feel a lot better about waders.
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[MMDon]

That was a good read flygoddess! Thanks for the post!
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[windriver]

Fact: You can drown in neopreme waders. I know some of you have heard this story before, but I will restate for the sake of those who may be inclined to believe that neopreme waders are some sort of life preserver.

About six years ago my wifes uncle ( Kenneth Kiesling) was fishing along around Massacre Rocks. He had fished that area all of his life. He accidentally stepped off of an underwater ledge. His neopreme waders filled with water, he fought for a few seconds and then the current and the weight of the water sucked him under before anyone could save him.

Fact: He was an experienced outdoorsman and fisherman who could swim well. He simply could not fight the weight of his waders and the strange currents at Massacre Rocks. If I remember correctly he was not wearing a wading belt.

Anyway sorry for the tangent, but this is not hearsay or second hand knowledge. I had to cut a trip to Florida short to attend the funeral of one of the best people I ever knew.

Windriver
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[flygoddess]

Sorry to hear about this Wind, but if you read the post and you just stated, the current. The water outside the waders weighs no more than the water in the waders.
Like a bowl or a glass. They weigh the same in the water, now when you try to take them OUT of the water, you are now lifting the weight of the glass and the water, just thank Gawd your head is not in the waders.

As far a Neoprene floating...with no current/vacuum, yes it floats.

I use to be into tournament water skiing and their vest are just neoprene.
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[iwantabuggy]

Back to the topic at hand. I don't believe that floatation is your worst concern when/if you go through the ice. Staying warm enough to survive until you get out of the water, out of your wet clothes, and into something warm and dry is of more concern to me. Someone had a nice video on that last year. I think it was on this forum. Does anyone still have a link to that?
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[prvrt]

Good reading. It probably would not help much tho since I can not swim.
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[MMDon]

I have the SOSpenders that auto inflate. Since no one is ever allowed on my boat without PFD's it is light weight and you probably could fall through without hardly getting your hair wet.

As for the biggest worry it's definitely drowning. Exposure really doesn't present as big a problem as you would think as the cold water slows down you metabolism. There was a video that has been going around for years done by a professor where they chop holes in the ice and test real people for hypothermia. They advise allowing your arms to freeze to the ice if you think you are going to be there a while.

They advise that if you go in the first thing to do is come to the surface and take a deep breath and relax. Panic and shortness of breath is your enemy!

Remember, If you fall through do not attempt to climb back onto the ice. Inch up as far as you can and then begin to kick your legs as if you were swimming. This will bring you right out onto the ice without further breaking complications and stregnth issues. When you are out, belly crawl away from the hole.

I always carry my safety ice pics around my neck as well 100' of climbing rope in my sled. You can never be to cautious!

Don
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[MMDon]

Here are some of the safety tips I post on other web sites I own or manage:

1.Bring your own 2x12x10' for an ice bridge in lakes with changing water levels. Do not use someone else's bridge.
2.Safety Ice picks on a spring cord should be around your neck.
3.A CO2 Flotation Device if fishing alone.
4.A heavy metal "Spud" bar on with a long rope to pick the ice in front of you each time you take a couple of steps. The ice can form pockets of different thickness.
5.A 100 ft. rope made of material that doesn't have memory.
6.A change of clothes and boots.
7.Extra pairs of gloves.
8.A cell or satellite phone.
9.4" of clear ice or 7" of white ice minimum.
10.Never go on the ice alone.

Getting Out if you Fall through the Ice!
11.If you fall through don't panic. Wait 30 seconds or until your breathing returns to exit the ice.
12.Place your arms up on the ice edge as far as you can reach.
13.Do not try to lift your leg up on to the ice.
14.With your fore arms, pull your body up and begin to kick your legs into a swimming position.
15.Swim out of the water.
16.Do not stand up when you exit the water. Belly crawl away from the hole.
17.In an attempt to rescue someone do not walk to the entrance hole edge.
18.If someone falls in make a emergency call before attempting rescue.
19.If you fall in alone and cannot get out, clear any snow away from the ice your arms are on. You need to attempt to freeze the arms of your jacket to the ice. You can be successfully rescued up to 8 hours later this way.
20.Most of all do not panic. Hypothermia can be reduced and you will be fine even in the event of rescues that take an hour or more.


Notes: Do not drill your holes in a haphazard fashion. It should not look like Swiss cheese where you are fishing. Drill your holes 3' apart in a wide arch away from the center. This allows for a wider span to catch schools of moving fish and you are not walking between 3 drilled holes in the ice. It also allows everyone to see every pole at the same time.
Do not stand in groups of three. If you are fishing with one other person on 4" ice, maintain a distance of 5 feet away.
Carry your rods in an empty 5 Gallon bucket with a handle. If someone falls in tie this bucket to the rope and use it as a weight to throw the rescue line to the victim.
Never cut a hole with a circumference larger than 10”. A child could fall through it.
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[jimpete525]

I just ordered the arctic armor plus jacket and bibs. I found them for a good price $339.00 free shipping and free gloves. They should be here next week some time. I will let everyone know what i think of them after I wear them.
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[flygoddess]

The price of good waders, a medium fly rod, a great reel......I can see that[]

Plus the only way I would get on ice!
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