one more reason to NUKE the middle east

[rigg478]

[mad]As we all know of the horable and untimly death of Nick Berg 26. I found my self wanting to find out what would make someone hate Americans so bad to decapatate an innocent american citizen, I stumbled on the photos and my heart just sank. I know this is a fishin message board but maybee we could sit and ponder how damn lucky we are that we are alive and have the freedom to do as we want, to fish, hunt, and presue our happieness. I admit after seeing the photos of the beheading I was full of hate I was pissed off and wanted to nuke the middle east, then I realised that would only bring me down to theyre level and all of us as Americans are better than that. Sorry for ramblin on I just needed to get this off my chest.

here is website if you want to see

[url "http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm"]http://www.drudgereport.com/iiraq3.htm[/url]
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[mateo]

I'm pretty irritated too, but I don't really have any desire to see the pics. I'm not sure why there's such anti-American sentiment over there. However, I will say that I don't think he had any business being over there in the first place. If you walk into a war zone, you kind of have to expect something bad to happen. I do sympathize with his family though.
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[iconoclasticPaul]

I once had a best friend who had a girlfriend from Arabia... his girlfriend's parents really hated the americans even though they live in California. My best friend Jeff had a hard time trying to see her and she had to sneak around behind her parents back. I asked why, and this is what I was told at the time (1981) it is because of their Islamic religion and their Islamic culture. They felt that Islam was becoming too westernized for their own comfort. They blame it on us. Our behavior is too offensive when it comes to their comfort zone. It has to do with intrusion of western culture upon their own people. Also, they feel that westerners are meddling with their own affairs and culture as well. Islamic in their own extreme level, will include hateful feelings to be indoctrinated in the impressionable mind (almost to the point of brainwashing). I seriously beleive that girl's parents had tried to do that to her, and she resisted. She was sneaking out of the house to favor the american lifestyle, and with a american boyfriend.

Well she got caught, and was meted out severe punishment inflicted upon her by her parents. She was not allowed to see Jeff anymore... to make the long story short, it had the Romeo and Juliet ending... she committed suicide as she could not accept her parents' demands and the wrath that was directed at her. Jeff called me one day late 1981, and he had been ditching school, so I went to visit him, he was very despondent. He felt responsible for her death, I tried to talk him out of it for two hours. I was looking out the window of his bedroom, he grabbed his shotgun, I felt something telling me to turn around and look. Jeff had his shotgun in his mouth... I was too slow to grab it, albeit, it was too late!

I heard someone said at the funeral, that the girlfriend's parents said that Jeff got what he deserved. I was agasted at the coldness of the situation. It is just way too bad that we live in a messed up world where there are people who hate americans for no good reasons, especially when it is their own people who bought into the western culture.

I feel bad for the dude from Pennsylvania for having his head lopped off. It is hard to turn to the other cheek as Christ would want us to do. But we do have the duty to God to defend our country against fanatics like those guys wielding their sword on a common american civilian.
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[fishinA]

I'm with mateo its a war zone! A greedy guy going to Iraq to work for $100,000 tax free. Filling a job an Iraqi can do is hardly a hero. I feel bad for his family they lost a great son. Why do we pay a truck driver 100 grand when there are 1000s of Iraqis that would love to do the job for 10,000. Iraqis are not any different than us in the regard that they just want to work earn money and prosper. Instead we bring in a bunch of yankees to do the work that they've done for years. Give a guy a future and he'll protect it. Let him idle and he'll figure out how to upset the status quo. What would you do if you were Iraqi, hide in your house for years? Its human nature to be productive.
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[fuzzyfisher]

i have been asked 3 time by a compony that i do a lot of work for if i would be intrested in going there and help get there power panats back up and working..

that is why i keep saying not only NO but F-no!!

i surved my time in the army 6 years..but i'm not going to go over and put my life on the line to make there life better.. then have them cut my head off!!

no $$$$ is worth that!!

dude on fish
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[Coldfooter]

I haven't had the urge to look at the photo's either. I too feel bad for his family but agree that a war zone (whether Bush has declared the war over or not) its still a war zone. The risk is extremely high to enter such an area and he as an American had to have known that risk before taking the offer. The truth is, all Americans (or outsiders for that matter) are seen there as the enemy. War is war and death is death no matter how one comes by it and while the method of his death is seen here a barbaric, it was fast and probably painless. You can bet yer butts many of our boys that have died there suffered far greater before actually passing away.. This may sound harsh but my personal feeling is,, its time for Americans to take care of Americans and not worry about playing big brother to the rest of the world so much.. The simple truth is,, its costing America far to much in the way of our young men and womens lives and capital to play big brother to a world that don't respect any part of our culture..
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[danzilla]

I totally agree with mateo and think that he was very well warned and feel sorry for his family

I think that its time for the US to keeps its nose out of the worlds buisness and work on our own problems here.

our government has crippled the american steel industry and we have far too many problems to deal with here on our own soil to be too concerned with what goes on clear across the glove,

This doesn't mean to stop aiding other countries by all means but a little help on the home front would be a nice change... the world doesn't want our form of government and they opose to it with deadly forces if the need to,

I'm glad I live in a free country I wish that the government would appreciate my efforrts as a taxpayer and start using some of my $$$'s to go towards something a little closer to home.

DZ
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[fishmagnet]

I think that its time for the US to keeps its nose out of the worlds buisness and work on our own problems here

Are you serious? In case you guys haven't noticed we are in a war. A war for the future of western civilization. Not paying attention to that fact has gotten us into the mess we're in now. Do you suppose that we'll just pull out of the worlds affairs and the Islamofanatics will be happy with that and leave us alone? If they have thier way they'll be cutting your head off if you don't become one of them. That's why they hate us because our freedom is standing in the way of their goal. That's why democracy in Iraq is such a problem for them. It's not about them simply not wanting our form of government.

By the way Bush never said the war was over. He said it was the end of major combat operations. The problem now is that we're trying to be nice instead of going hard after the few people who are stiring up the trouble. Pulling out of the middle east will be a sign of weakness and will only bring the attacks here instead of over there.

If you guys want to side with the people who would cut off a guys head slowly while he was screaming then so be it but I would suggest waking up to what is going on.

FM
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[Coldfooter]

Well we each have an opinion as to the why's and wherefores as far as the War in Iraq but I'm simply not so naive as to believe Western Freedoms played much if any part in our troops being sent to Irag. I do however believe Revenge played a much larger part than human rights or the threat of "Weapons of mass destruction".. Did he have those weapons? Probably. Was he supporting terrorism? Yes! But was the use of those issues merely an excuse to take advantage of the American public already in uproar over 911? I believe the answer to that question is Yes and that we as a nation were sold a bill of goods..

But thats merely this man's opinion
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[danzilla]

Maybee I am as stoopid as you imply, but I never read anywhere that anybody supported the musslums that decaptitated that guy....

and as far as the US bein involved where they ought not be then look at the history books... the japanese at least had the deciency to bomb a military installation we had to put a bomb on a civillian city.

I know that we are the "big kids on the block" but we dont have to be pushing our form of government onto these other countries.

Yes bush did say that the war was ended and we were there as a policing agency now but its still getting alot of american soldiers killed everyday which I dont support.. and all for what??? OIL OH yea and what is the bush family HEAVILY invested in??? oh yea oil so dont tell me that their intentions are completely honorable and patriotic.

DZ
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[DanielJRioux]

I just retired after 20 years in the Navy, and if I could join again and go over there I would. I have been to that part of the world before and I would go again, only as a soldier, to defend our way of life. So many peoples good lives were won by their fathers, grandfathers, uncles, sons, daughters and anyone else who has served, is serving, and will serve! Be thankful and respectful to our military, they are the reason we are free. [size 6][red]God bless you all and hurry home safely. Thank you for your continueing service!
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[fishmagnet]

Every one who goes around saying that this war is all over oil or personal revenge or any other silly conspiracy is playing into the hands of the terrorists and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. They know that if they kill a few of us every day that enough people will get mad, give up on the war and want to pull out of the Islamist affairs. So even if you didn't say it, you are on their side. Then what???? Let the U.N. run our policy? You know the people who were taking kick backs from Sadam through their oil-for-weapons-and-cash program and then lecture us about what we should and shouldn't do. That's what Kerry wants to do. Let's not do what's best for us the greatest nation in the history of the world, we'll just take a poll of all the nations that hate us and do what they tell us.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone can live here and think we are the cause of the worlds problems. Have you seen the governments they have in the Middle East? The have dictators who control every aspect of life and when things go wrong they tell the people that it's all America's fault or the Jews, so they hate us instead of their rulers. Maybe we should sit back and wait until they slowly impose their form of government on us???

I don't support soldiers getting killed either but alot of that is from not being aggressive enough in the beginning and letting the terrorists take hold and the fact that they know there are people who will turn against the war as time goes on. They know they don't have to beat the whole army, just kill enough until we wimp out.

As for Japan they got what was coming to them. We even warned them about the bomb before hand. Who else would do that? Did they warn us about Pearl Harbor? Just like the Islamists hiding out in Masques the Japanese built their factories spread out in populated areas so there was no way to destroy them without razing the whole city. I'm grateful for the bomb. It saved the lives of thousands, perhaps millions of Americans (maybe even my Grandfather) and COUNTLESS Japanese. It was the most humane way to end the war. The slaughter would have been horriffic if we had invaded. I could go on and on about WWII if you want. Maybe we shouldn't have imposed our will on Hitler as well? Killing millions of innocent people was thier right as a soveriegn nation perhaps?

And no Bush never said the war was over. In fact he said many times that this is a war unlike any other and it could take decades to win if we win. I doubt we will because there are too many people that can't see the difference between us and them and lack the will to see it through.

No I don't think Bush is perfect but he at least gets it. What else would you have us do? It's a war that has to be fought. The other side has been fighting it for years and will keep fighting it no matter if we pull out and give them everthing they want. Did you know that Bin Laden was bolstered by the way we pulled out of Somalia? That's why they keep killing our soldiers in Iraq. They think that when the going gets tough we'll run. It's to say it but it's true for a lot of people. 9-11 wouldn't have happened to the post WWII America. No one dared attack us for years because they knew we'd kick their butt. We still can but now we fight wars with one hand behind our back because we don't want to make anyone mad at us and our enemies know it, they don't play by the same rules.

If you think the U.S. is so bad then someday you might get your wish and we won't have to suffer from our way of life even in America. What would you prefer, the entire world like us or the entire world like Iran? If you even have to think about it then don't bother answering. That is the question. Are we going to have freedom to live our lives as we see fit or will we have other people, political correctness or world opinion tell us how to live?

FM
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[BEARCLAW]

Sarin, Mustard Gas Discovered Separately in Iraq[url "http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120137,00.html[/url]
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[danzilla]

ya know... I wish you would completely read the posts and not just assume my intentions... I do support our troops, I dont know where you think I'm so pro terrorists. I dont think the war should have ended when it did, this whole idea of scaleing back to a police movement from a forward attack is BS its costing lives everyday.

this went on in vietnam and it costed us dearly.

I support bush as well but lately I'm starting to rethink that, I cant believe that ANY us president would consider taking away the rights of hourly workers and give companies the rights to not pay overtime.

as far as japan goes your wrong even if they were warned how could you move that many people and where? comeon give me a break!!!! even if they did attack us with no warning it was a military stragety on a military installation, not an attack on the largest civillian city, thats supposed to be the differences between organized military and organized terrorists.

I dont want you to think I'm anti american but I have a hard time supporting some of our elected officials... we all know how corrupt politics are thats never been disputed and its costing us taxpayers and its breaking down any trust that we can dare put in our elected officials.

DZ
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[Coldfooter]

[size 1]I quote;

" [/size][font "Verdana"][size 1]Every one who goes around saying that this war is all over oil or personal revenge or any other silly conspiracy is playing into the hands of the terrorists and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. [/size][/font]

[font "Verdana"][size 1]((Hmmm,, Where have I heard those words before?)) [/size][/font]

[font "Verdana"][size 1]They know that if they kill a few of us every day that enough people will get mad, give up on the war and want to pull out of the Islamist affairs. So even if you didn't say it, you are on their side."[/size][/font][size 1]

Sir; That is the type of response I would expect from a person that has been completely and totally blind-sighted by this administration.. And possibly, a person willing to return to, or supports, Macarthyisum. But hey, I respect your thoughts and choice to make such a statement. Its certainly one of your freedoms. [/size]
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[fishmagnet]

Sorry if I misunderstood your point. You're right about calling off the dogs too soon. I agree that some of our policies are costing more lives than should be. There is nothing perfect especially in war. Many mistakes have been made and will continue to be made but it bothers me that so many people want to throw out the baby with the bath water. In WWII we made mistakes that cost the lives of thousands of soldiers (Tarawa for example) but there weren't protests and daily calls for the administration to resign. It's hard to be positive when we get a daily barrage of how bad it's going and how bad we are.

Again we'll have to disagree about Japan. They were perhaps more brutal and fanatic than the Nazi's. You should read the book about the Batan death march. Have you ever heard of the rape of Nanking? Some people say as many as 20 million Chinese died during the war and most of them were not due to strateigic military attacks. As I said before we warned them. They could have surrendered but there was no way they would without the threat of total destruction. In case you didn't know it took two bombs to do it and in the end it saved the lives of millions. You know many times more people were killed in the fire bombings before the A-bomb. It's the same problem we have now with the terrorists. How do you reason with or have peace with fanatics who would be glad to die for their cause? The question is will we be able to win this war by politically or militarily ending support for the terrorists or will it come to nukes?

Like I said I don't agree with Everything Bush does but have you heard what John Kerry Or Ted Kennedy are saying? I don't think the alternative will be very pretty.

Thanks for the debate.

FM
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[fishmagnet]

You know there was a book that came out last year I believe that had a lot of evidence that McCarthy was right. It's a common tactic of the political Left that if you don't like the message then slander the messenger. Now we have a culture where it is considered most American to hate America. Does that make sense? Jimmy Carter can buddy up with Castro and Sean Penn can get kissy face with Sadam Hussein and talk down our country to the world but if anyone dares tell them they are wrong then it's time to break out the McCarthy card.

I have many disagreements with this administration but as far as the war goes they are the only ones willing to do something about it. No one has yet answered the question: What would you have us do?

And yes, every time a Democratic party leader talks down the administration or there is a poll about public support waning, it gives aid and comfort to the enemy. You don't have to take my word for it Bin Laden said as much. Our division and lack of will power is a big part of why they chose to attack us on 9-11. I think there hasn't been another attack here since because of our strong reponse but the more we bicker and waffle about how to pursue the war the more they are encouraged that their tactics will work. They might even think we could have a repeat of what happened in Spain, that an attack before the election will change the results. A simple question to ask yourself is who do you think Bin Laden wants to win?

I think I've made my point and I doubt I'll change your mind nor you mine so I'm going to get back to fishing now but thanks for the debate. Isn't it great that we live in a place where we can argue if we want and even have time and money and even the right to do silly things like fishing? That's why this is the greatest nation in the history of the world and I hope and pray it stays that way.

FM
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[BearLakeMack]

[font "Comic Sans MS"][size 3]Don, you're killin' me. Half the folks on this board have no clue to what McCarthyism is! For those interested in what Don is refering to here a link that explains where the term "MaCarthyism" came from. Interesting history.[/size][/font] [center][font "Arial Black"][size 3][url "http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmccarthyism.htm"]McCarthyism - The Great American Red Scare[/url][/size][/font][/center] [left][font "Comic Sans MS"][size 3]Don, you're aging yourself! This is early '50's stuff! HA![/size][/font][/left]
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[Coldfooter]

[size 2]Ok,, I guess it time to actually clear some air, and add my 2 cent. But hey, its all good..

First allow me to state that I agree Danzilla. Complete power corrupts completely... Truer words can not be spoken!

Next allow me to say I dont entirely disagree with what your saying FishMagnet. We as a nation must support our guys and gals in harms way. Whats more I truley believe they know they have all of our support and hopes that each will return home. Father more, it prides me greatly to see the support our troops are give now during these recent conflicts unlike the late 60's and early 70's.

((Ha!,, Yes BLM I know, again I'm aging myself, crap!))



"[/size][font "Times New Roman"][size 3]It's a common tactic of the political Left that if you don't like the message then slander the messenger.".. [/size][/font][font "Arial"][size 2]

So true, and a perfect example of whats taking place by accusing others of supporting terrorism simply because they dont stand beside Bush and his every whim. Yet slandering the out spoken could be seen as a mild touch compared to the slauder of them do to McCarthyism. Dont be mistaken in believing that any of us that dont totally buy into Bush, support terrorism. We proudly stand with our brave troops fighting the battle. Whats more,, let me remind you that this is an election year. Mud is, and will be, tossed back and forth. Its anything and everything but a oneway street. Personally,, I think all policians are crooks.. They'll happily kiss your baby one minute, then steal its sucker the instant you turn your back.



"A simple question to ask yourself is who do you think Bin Laden wants to win?"[/size][/font]

[font "Arial"][size 2]Truth be known,, I dont think Bin Laden (if he survives) cares who wins this up coming election. I dont believe his battle is with Bush persay, but instead with what this nation stands for. Whether our next leader is Bush, Kerry, or my dead and rotting black lab in the ground,, I would hope Bin Laden understands that this war will continue and that the American public will continue to support the "war on terrorism" as well as our fighting men and women. But in either case,, he will lose this battle as will anyone willing to step on our toes or harm Americans. [/size][/font]

[font "Arial"][size 2]Its a funny thing, America has been call the great melting pot,, witch is quite right. Its all of its great cultures that have created the grand country in witch we live. And while we might squabble amongst ourselves from time to time we're still liking that of a big family. We can fight with each other and bloody each others noses and thats OK. But an outsider hadnt better try and poke his fist in, he'll merely draw back a bloody stump because we all came at him at once and took a bite.[/size][/font][font "Times New Roman"]
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As far as Bush. Plain and simple, I have a problem with any leader (here or abroad) that leans against his podium, thousands of miles from the war front, while smuggly boasting of his victories as his troops charge bravely down the barrel of a rifle. I know its merely wishfull thinking on my part,, but if war must take place I'd perfer those in control actually stand on the battle field shoulder to shoulder with me, my son, or grandsons, and spilling their own blood also for their causes. Or better yet, I think we should simply stand both leaders face to face, hand them each and axe handle,, and let beat each others brains out! (And of course,, I use the term brains lightly). After all, no matter who won the battle the rest of us would be sure winners. In the end theres atleast one less politician to deal with on this planet, and the other one really wouldnt amount to crap either. But I suppose as with all good things, like raw eggs in my beer,, brave leaders are things of the past and will remain so. But being the old fart I am, I can take great pleasure in the knowledge that I have seen those believing themselves as great and grand come and go like so much "dust in the wind", (forgive the catch phrase, and pun). And know this, I'm including those leaders around the world hiding in their deep dark holes as well as in the white house with their fingers on the buttom like those of the passed. If history as given us anything,, its given us the knowledge of rule 1, things will change, and rule 2, that at no time will every one see things the same. But hey, thats OK. For without such change and/or disagreements, and the ability to voice our opinions, we as a nation of freely thinking people become as stale as last weeks dinner roll. Its our willingness to be heard when we feel an unjustice is taking place that makes this nation the best and maintain its constant on going policy of checks and balances. For without our opinions and willingness to state them openly we has a nation end up falling into an endless downward spiral like we now seeing taking place in the Middle East and many other places on this planet. Personally, between you, I, and the fence post, I enjoy having the right to speak my opinion rather than having someone else tell me what to think, what to say, where to crap, and how high..

As far as your question FM, the truth is, I dont believe there is one pure and simply answer to it. Some would tell you it would have been better to have waited for more proof, while others will tell you we did as we should have by rush in, kickin ass, taking names, cutting off the head of the snake, and letting the cards fall as they may. Simply put, the responses could be endless and mind blowing. But the problem with both or any answers to your question is it will come to you by way of a human mind. My thoughts are,, and as I stated, he probably did have weapons of mass distruction,, and was without doubt involved in the support of terrorism. Did we do the right thing by removing him from power? I believe that answer is YES! Should the man find his fate to be that of his son's? Again I say, YES! And hand me the axe handle.

But, there are far more ways to cut off the head of a snake than to putting the entire shovel at risk, if you catch my drift. Be it right or wrong the world has the power/funds to back those who would step in and snuff out those it see's as a problem. So the real question should be, would the world but more importantly the American public, have given support to such action? Maybe yes, maybe no. Personally,, I dont give a rats butt what the rest of the world thinks of me, us as a nation, or our policies. We as a nation can very well stand on our own and basically have for well over 200 years. But an American public leader must be will to except the Americans point of veiws. It must be carefully taken into consideration where our lives and captial are being spent and that includes all Americans voices whether he, our leader, agrees with their thoughts or other wise. To use such a tactic as accusing those that dont support him and his causes as supporters of terrorism is no less than McCarthyism in itself, and as I see it, the purest form of dictatorship. Would we have chosen war at that time? Personally I think the answer to that question and the vote of the nation as a whole would been, yes. But we as a nation of clear thinking people weren't given a opportunity to voice for ourselves where this war is concerned. Our leader said we go so we went, its was that simple. Could we have been asked? Sure enough,, and ly the proof takes place each week on American Idol. But hey,, thats merely my opinion. Btw, who's on the outs this coming week?? Ha!

As far as the use of McCarthyism (note my correction in spelling) as a way to scare the American public and to squelch their voices concerning this war, or any other subject matter that dont see eye to eye with Bush and his policies as far as that goes. This nation has seen the days when anyone could have been accused, arrested, and put on trial as a trouble maker because another person claimed that person wasnt a true American merely because they happen to speak out against what they seen as an unjustice. It all sorta reminded me of the witch hunts and ly the out come was much better. However,, luckly, we'd banned burning at the stake by the time of McCarthyism.. You being a freedom loving outspoken good American (as I am) have to know that those tackics are as wrong today has they were when in practice. I truely hope we as a nation have grown well beyond such childish stunts..

OK..

It was a good debate and time well spent, but its time to get back to fishing.. Oh and by the way,, I suggest we all try and hook one for the troops this week..

Btw,, did I topped me old pal Pat for the longest winded post yet? Probably not. HA![/size]
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[fishmagnet]

I think that one wins for the longest post I've ever taken the time to read all the way through! Very well put as well I might add.

I think we probably agree on most things but I guess I'm not quite old enough to be so jaded about all politics. I think all Americans have a duty to be informed and involved in order to elect the best people possible.

"So true, and a perfect example of whats taking place by accusing others of supporting terrorism simply because they dont stand beside Bush and his every whim"

I would agree with that but what I'm talking about goes far beyond that. I'm talking about Ted Kennedy basically saying that Bush is worse than Sadam. Did you know that they've had him saying things like this on Aljazeera? Do you think it helps our cause as a whole to have Americans on Arab t.v. saying that America is wrong? It's fine if we debate each other about what we think is best but many cross the line and show open contempt for the president and the country and do it for the whole world to hear. There is no way that anyone can convince me that this kind of thing doesn't give aid and comfort to the enemy. What's worse is that they're are doing it to hurt Bush at all costs even if our troops get killed over it.

I'm not naieve enought to believe that this kind of thing is one sided but I think Bush's intentions are in the right place and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because otherwise we're all screwed because I haven't heard anyone else come out with a plan that's any better. The Democrats only plan seems to be if Bush is for it then they're against it even if it's what's best for the country. Can you imagine if this was what it was like in WWII? We never would have made it through.

Yes I do think Bin Laden cares. Just like it mattered in Spain. I don't think the Democrats have a plan or desire to pursue this war anywhere near the degree that Bush has. Some people question the need for war at all. They really believe that if we pull out, say we're sorry for being imperialist pigs and let the Arabs overrun Israel then the neck hacking terrorists will like us and we can all be friends. It isn't ever going to happen. The Islamic fanatics are like a cancer that needs to be removed if civilization is going to remain civilized and we all need to be on the same page on that or we're in trouble.

Happy fishing,

FM
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