Henry's Lake Fall brookie's?

[davehayes]

Thanks very much. Dave
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[DeeCee]

BigOregon.

Hello,

Hope you are able to come enjoy some Henry's Lake fishing for big brook trout. Just thought I would clear up some misconceptions that seem to appear from time to time on the rumor mill vine. Some on this site have reported or stated that female brookies planted in Henry's Lake are sterilized. I majored as a fisheries biologist in college and have learned a few things--not that I am a know-it-all, but planting sterilized females of any species in a body of water is a myth. First of all, how do you sterile a female fish? If you could, the labor would be too expensive to justify the cost.

The truth of the matter is if any sterilizing of fish is done, it is done in the egg stage and I challenge anyone to sort eggs into fertilized female eggs and fertilized male eggs. They are only one or the other AFTER fish sperm fertilizes the eggs just like human eggs and then how do you tell which one is female or male without doing an invasive genetic test on each egg?

Sterilizsed eggs are produced by chemically treating all of the fertilized eggs or raising the water temperature surrounding the eggs a few degrees causing triploid eggs. This results in a sterile fish when it hatches. To plant sterile females after this is possible but not practical or cost effective. What's the purpose? To keep brookies from spawning in Henry's Lake? The lake already has naturally reproducing brook trout. To get planted brook trout to grow bigger because they direct their energy to putting on weight instead of milt or eggs? If this was the purpose, then sterile male and female brook trout would be planted. This steril idea has been used on brookies and rainbows where no fish reproduction is wanted but not by one sex or the other. It's not practical.

Secondly, the background color of a fish (i.e. darker or lighter) is usually determined by depth of water that a fish was dwelling in and the under water cover around it at the moment it was caught. This is a fish's ability to change the background color of its body to blend in to its surroundings in order to protect itself from over head predators like eagles and blue herons. This would explain while many of the brook trout in Henry's Lake are silvery because the lake is shallow ( mostly under twenty feet deep) and plants have died down during the winter (little under water cover) and their is white colored snow overhead on top of the ice.

Best time to catch a colorful male from Henry's Lake in spawning colors would be in
September or October during spawning season. Not only would they be spawning but the water is cooler and they would be more likely to bite. I would suggest contacting the Idaho Fish and Game regional office in Idaho Falls which is over the Henry's Lake area and speak to a fisheries biologist familiar with spawning time for Henry"s Lake brookies and where and when best to catching a spawning male. Hope this is helpful. The phone number for the Idaho Dept. of Fish and Game office in Idaho Falls, Idaho is 1-208-525-7290. Best of luck.

DeeCee.
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[BigOregon]

DeeCee, believe it or not, there is no sorting of any kind to come up with all females. They raise these fish and ALL the offspring are females, and they're all sterile (or supposedly "all").
What's even more , is that they do this because it IS the most cost effective.
I have talked a ton with the people at the dept of fish and game and also the hatchery and sometimes it's so depressing to hear I want to just hang up and cry (but I don't I swear!)
They also told me that after all the whining by people like me, they were going to try to get their hands on some males for planting this month and guess what? They couldn't get any so they, once again, are planting all females and all strerile! yikes!
They're going to "try" to get a mixed stock for next fall. My ONLY hope is to catch a "wild" or naturally spawned male and it sounds like it's a long shot, but I can think of worse things to do than try.
I actually kinda like the fact that the planted fish cannot spawn with the wild fish in that lake and yes, I know that the brookies aren't native, but a few have been successful at spawning in there and the thought of them passing on their success genes and not getting them diluted is kinda nice.
Yeah, ofcourse the colors will vary slightly because of water temp and clarity, but I am only interested in catching one that has the full-on spawning colors and that only happens about right now- infact I probably need to get over there!
Contacted the taxidermest and she was great!
THANKS for all the replies!
DS
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[MMDon]

I was curious about this female male issue so I sent communique to one of the foremost fisheries biology scientists on the west coast. His work for years was not only the study of fish but to certify the university studies done in all universities on the west coast, Alaska and Hawaii. I asked him if triploid causing heat or chemical treated eggs all became female.

The reply:

Hi Don,

As for you question, heat or pressure induced triploidy produces both male and female fish. The females are more desirable because they typically don't develop mature ovaries and therefor grow better than the males. The males develop abnormal testes and almost all of the sperm are nonfunctional. But this degree of sexual development takes energy, which slows the growth rate.

BTW, this process isn't a mutation since no genetic information is changes. The effects are brought about in by a change in gene dosage. Triploidy occurs in nature in less than 1% of wild fish. Many world records are likely big old triploid females. The only case that I know where this has been verified is the world record lake trout.

I hope this answers your question.

Dr. Lee Weber
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[DeeCee]

I'm still stumped about this all female thing. It is the sperm that determines whether an egg of fish or humans is a male or female.Another wards each sperm is either a male or female sperm. Do they now have a method for killing all the male sperm in milt before fertilizing fish eggs? How do they get only female fish? I know it is possible to sex trout after they grow several inches long by the shape of their head. The males have a longer jaw line ending in a "kype" at the front of the mouth and the females a shorter jaw line, but, this method is not 100% effective. To sort for all females to plant would require sexing the fish and then probably discarding the males which is terribly wasteful and non productive.
The heat or pressure method that produces triploid fish does not produce all females and doesn't change the sex of the unhatched eggs, only changes the genetic configuration within each egg. Could you please find out from your fish culture friends how they get all females? Thanks, good hearing from you.

DeeCee
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[DeeCee]

MMDon,

I appreciated Doctor Webber's reply to you. What he stated is exactly what I understand. I think this "all female" thing is just a rumor. Sterilized fish are planted for a couple of reasons (1) To prevent reproduction so that one species doesn't cross with another species as in the case of rainbows with cutthroat. This helps to protect the rainbow from breeding the cutthroat out of existence to preserve the species.
(2) To prevent a species such as the brook trout from over populating and stunting themselves so they grow to a small size and become undesirable to fisherman to catch or keep.
(3) To introduce a species to a new habitat to provide sport fishing for the sportsman without the chance of it reproducing and getting "loose" elsewhere in the environment resulting in negative consequences. Wipers (a striped bass X white bass, hybrid) and tiger muskies (a northern pike X musky, hybrid) and tiger trout (brown trout X brook trout, hybrid) and splake (lake trout X brook trout, hybrid) are all examples of this purpose.
(4) Sterilized fish also can grow bigger because they use energy to grow bigger instead of produce milt or eggs to reproduce.

I suspect Idaho's last three new state rainbow trout records in the last few years were sterilized females (sterilized at egg stage). This may be where the misunderstanding is coming from that fisheries departments are only planting sterilized females.

DeeCee
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[DeeCee]

Yes and Windriver's son is holding a beautiful MALE brookie. Notice the "kype" or hook on the end of the mouth or jaw line and the greater amount of color on the belly that a male brook trout sports.

DeeCee
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[BigOregon]

Dee Cee, how I wish it was just a rumor- you keep giving me this tiny bit of hope- lol! Take it from a guy who spent the last 5 months searching the world for pictures of male brookies from Henry's. There are very, very few, but hundreds of pics of these really dull-looking females- it's .
What makes me the most frustrated si the idea that they think all we are after is giant size- it's always about breaking a record, etc. I would choose a five pound natural male over a state record sterile female any day and I know I'm not the only one!
Anyway, here, if you dare read something as incredibly boring as this, is some information about why someone would want to make all females, and how they do it. Go to page 53 and learn my friend!
[url "http://www.trjfas.org/pdf/issue_2_1/41_56.pdf"]http://www.trjfas.org/pdf/issue_2_1/41_56.pdf[/url]

Dave
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[DeeCee]

Hey BigOregon. Just wanted to thank you for the article on developing all female trout. Even tho most people might have thought the article boring, I found it interesting and must admit I learned for the first time about female hormonal treatment of trout eggs. I knew human females take the treatment but never heard of fish eggs receiving it.

I would like to return the favor for your efforts and fill you in on the latest information on stocking of brook trout at Henrys Lake. I called the region 6 office of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game and talked to a dept. employee. He decided it would be better if I talked directly to the Henry's Lake Dept. office and spoke with a woman named Jennifer. I called and left a message and this morning received a call from Jennifer. I asked her if they were stalking Henrys Lake with all female brook trout and she confirmed they were. This is why it is hard to catch a male brook trout in Henrys at this time. She told me they were getting their eggs from Canada. She also said in the next year or two they hope to be getting their eggs from Wyoming and will then have both male and female triploid eggs and will then have both sexes in the Lake (sterile fish tho). She also said there is a small wild residual reproducing brook trout population in the tributary streams to Henrys Lake, so an occasional wild male brookie shows up in the catch. She also cautioned me that the Wyoming source of brook trout eggs was at this point not a done deal but she is hoping it will of course happen. I mentioned you and your concerns and she said she thought she had talked to a guy from Oregon one or two times in the past year or so. Was that you! Anyway, hope this is helpful to your goals and their success.
DeeCee
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[Bmarsh]

[quote BigOregon]Dee Cee, how I wish it was just a rumor- you keep giving me this tiny bit of hope- lol! Take it from a guy who spent the last 5 months searching the world for pictures of male brookies from Henry's. There are very, very few, but hundreds of pics of these really dull-looking females- it's .
What makes me the most frustrated si the idea that they think all we are after is giant size- it's always about breaking a record, etc. I would choose a five pound natural male over a state record sterile female any day and I know I'm not the only one!
Anyway, here, if you dare read something as incredibly boring as this, is some information about why someone would want to make all females, and how they do it. Go to page 53 and learn my friend!
[url "http://www.trjfas.org/pdf/issue_2_1/41_56.pdf"]http://www.trjfas.org/pdf/issue_2_1/41_56.pdf[/url]

Dave[/quote]

I agree 100% on the natural male thing. Brookies are one of my favorite fish on the planet. Love the way males look. One of my bucket lists is to catch a 16in+ male brookie in spawning colors.
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[MMDon]

I sent the link and page number to the fisheries biologist I know their reply was . . .

The method only works for diploid (normal) trout. Triploids are sterile and don't produce eggs that might be fertilized by XX sperm from hormone treated pseudo males.

I don't know of any way to produce all female triploids other than by manual selection. As the article states, triploids are not used for aquaculture since only the females have the desirable growth characteristics. You have to spend a lot of time and money to grow the fish until they are large enough to select only females. For sport fisheries, the males are just ignored. They just don't grow larger than normal trout in most cases. The triploid females provide the trophies.

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[BigOregon]

[quote DeeCee]Hey BigOregon. Just wanted to thank you for the article on developing all female trout. Even tho most people might have thought the article boring, I found it interesting and must admit I learned for the first time about female hormonal treatment of trout eggs. I knew human females take the treatment but never heard of fish eggs receiving it.

I would like to return the favor for your efforts and fill you in on the latest information on stocking of brook trout at Henrys Lake. I called the region 6 office of the Idaho Department of Fish and Game and talked to a dept. employee. He decided it would be better if I talked directly to the Henry's Lake Dept. office and spoke with a woman named Jennifer. I called and left a message and this morning received a call from Jennifer. I asked her if they were stalking Henrys Lake with all female brook trout and she confirmed they were. This is why it is hard to catch a male brook trout in Henrys at this time. She told me they were getting their eggs from Canada. She also said in the next year or two they hope to be getting their eggs from Wyoming and will then have both male and female triploid eggs and will then have both sexes in the Lake (sterile fish tho). She also said there is a small wild residual reproducing brook trout population in the tributary streams to Henrys Lake, so an occasional wild male brookie shows up in the catch. She also cautioned me that the Wyoming source of brook trout eggs was at this point not a done deal but she is hoping it will of course happen. I mentioned you and your concerns and she said she thought she had talked to a guy from Oregon one or two times in the past year or so. Was that you! Anyway, hope this is helpful to your goals and their success.
DeeCee[/quote]

Dee Cee glad you liked it! Yeah, I had heard that about the Wyoming stock. They said the goal was to stock males this September, but it didn't work out. I hope they do soon- I'm not getting any younger!
The quote from the biologist about that the big, sterile females are the real "trophies" is almost laughable. I get the feeling that these people at Fish and Game are all deciding amongst themselves that all fisherman just want giant "record-breaking" brookies, when I keep hearing of people that want the pretty males! There are a TON of fisherman that think they are going to catch one on there next cast and think they just hit bad luck by catching only females. We need to all band together and let them know we don't care about giant females that look like carp- he he. (just kidding- all brookies are pretty!)
THANKS for the info! Yeah, that was me- I have talked to quite a few people at the DFG.
Dave
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[flygoddess]

Here is one of my donations to the Brookies. Caught Friday morning off State boat dock


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[BigOregon]

NICE ONE Joni!!!!!!!
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[TexasTransplant]

That is one beautiful brookie!
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[Biglew]

[quote flygoddess]Here is one of my donations to the Brookies. Caught Friday morning off State boat dock

[.IMG][url "http://i44.photobucket.com/...2.jpg[/IMG][/quote]"]http://i44.photobucket.com/...2.jpg[/IMG][/quote][/url]
Why didn't you holler. I'd have pumped up the toon and come along as a cheerleader. It was pretty slow at Chesterfield on Sat., but managed a couple in the 18-20" range. Need some cool.
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[flygoddess]

Lew, we just boat a tin boat and were talking about Chester.....give a shout k?
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[kglissmeyer]

Here's one from Henry's last year at this time:



Kelly.
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[TexasTransplant]

Apologies in advance for straying off topic, but y'all seem to be big reservoir/lake fishers, so I'm hoping y'all won't mind too much:

Any recommendations on float tubes? I've been considering buying one so I can have more than shore access to places like Chesterfield, Henry's, Upper Blackfoot, etc.

I'd prefer something "backpackable" and to spend less than $200, so that pretty much rules out the nice pontoons some of y'all use. But what of inflatables? I'd appreciate any advice or recommendations. Feel free to send a PM!

Thanks and apologies again for wandering OT.

Cheers,

TT
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[kglissmeyer]

I have a couple of these: http://www.basspro.com/Caddis&-x00ae;-Sp...googlebase

And one of these: http://www.basspro.com/Classic-Accessori...LL_PRODUCT

I really like the Togiak, but now I'm a pontoon convert so I only use the float tubes for waters like Silver Creek, etc. where toons aren't allowed.

Kelly.
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